Featured History Leadership

The Old Independent Baptist

Recently I wrote an article called The New Independent Baptist. The response was warm and wonderful. Ministry leaders ranging from newly minted college-graduates to long-established veteran pastors contacted me with kind words and full agreement. Across the age spectrum it appeared that we had accomplished our goal of encouraging the next generation of leaders in this Christian movement.

 Unfortunately, what was an encouragement to many was misinterpreted by a few. They mistakenly thought that a celebration of one generation necessitated an indictment of another. As if saying Peter was a great disciple somehow takes something away from John. So, to help express our heart on the matter I asked my father to write a post addressing the historic position of the Independent Baptists pertaining to the seven points of the original post. He wanted to call it “The Old Independent Baptist” which I thought was brilliant.

 I want to thank him for entering this conversation. More than that, I want to thank him for being a wonderful mentor and good father. The readers of this blog might be surprised by the eyewitness account of a man who has been in this movement for over 4 decades. Now, let us sit back and listen to the wisdom of the elder:

When I was nine days old my mother had me in church. At that time, we attended an IFCA church here in Las Vegas. When I was ten, my father passed away and we began to attend an American Baptist Church. This church had a pastor that was a student of the Word but was not much of an evangelist. When I was sixteen, I was invited to a Pentecostal church where I heard about the return of Christ and the Tribulation. I committed my life to Christ, yet no one told me how to get saved. A few months later, I was invited for the first time to an independent Baptist church.

I liked the church for two reasons – the music was exciting and the message challenged me to live for Christ. The church gave me several audiotapes of an independent Baptist preacher who clearly explained the gospel. It was here, though I had gone to church all my life, I learned how to be saved.

I fell in love with the independent Baptist movement for the following reasons (they may sound familiar):

  1. They were obsessed with the Gospel.

I learned how to lead someone to Christ by listening to tapes by an independent Baptist preacher. The pastor at our IB church encouraged everyone to invite their lost friends to church. We were “seeker sensitive” without knowing the terminology. The entire church was focused on winning people to Jesus. After graduating from high school in 1973, I went to an Independent Baptist College now called Liberty University. Jerry Falwell talked about saturation evangelism, which was defined as “Taking the Gospel to every available person, in every available place, through every available means.” There I got involved in many innovative forms of evangelism: door knocking, street preaching, Bus Ministry, and passing out tracts. I even had the privilege of helping start a new church in North Carolina. You see, our family understands that independent Baptists have always been obsessed with the gospel.

  1. They were committed to preach the Word.

For the forty-three years I have been involved with independent Baptists, the emphasis has always been on preaching the Word. I was taught at Liberty, “A text without a context is a pretext”. I have preached in several independent Baptist churches and many outstanding independent Baptist colleges over the last thirty years. Each time I have preached at one of these colleges, I have received a welcome letter. In that welcome letter there is always a statement that goes something like this, “The chapel pulpit at our school is our most important hour of the day, please make sure to preach the Word of God.” In my experience, Bible preaching has always been preeminent in our independent Baptist circles.

  1. They were unified men who opposed Hyper-Separatism.

Within the Independent Baptist Movement I had the privilege of meeting John R. Rice, Jerry Falwell, Bill Rice, Lester Roloff among others. But I also got to hear great Southern Baptist preachers like W.A. Criswell, James Robinson, Freddie Gage, Peter Lord, and J. Harold Smith. All of these men preached and ministered together. We were taught by B.R. Lakin that we should “Be friends to all those who are friends of Christ.”

Old independent Baptists taught that certain things were important.

  • Doctrinal purity – the fundamentals
  • Moral purity – one man, one woman, one lifetime
  • Practical holiness – living what you say you believe

Old independent Baptists only separated from those who violated these important issues.

They were truly unified. Sadly, in the late 70s and early 80s some began to divide over minor issues. And those unimportant issues became a litmus test for fellowship. Yet this new anomaly spread quickly in our movement. The original independent Baptists disagreed on many things, yet were unified to reach the lost. The Sword of the Lord is a great example of this. John R. Rice, who did not believe in storehouse tithing, often featured Jerry Falwell and other independent Baptists who strongly promoted storehouse tithing. The Sword also featured W.A. Criswell a leader in the Southern Baptist convention. Charles Spurgeon the Calvinist, John Wesley the Methodist, and Billy Sunday the Presbyterian were all featured in the Sword. In college I learned how to give by faith by listening to Chuck Milhuff a Nazarene preacher who was introduced to Jerry Falwell by John R. Rice.

Independent Baptists have always encouraged independent Baptists be independent. Separation was not over dress, music, pulpit attire, or Bible versions. All of this nonsense began to take place around 1980. Old independent Baptists had no problem with diversity in the movement, but they did insist on doctrinal purity, moral purity, and practical holiness. (Sadly, once people began to focus on minor issues, these major issues began to be excused.)

  1. They were turned off by denomination politics.

Independent Baptists have always despised denominational control. This is why they split away from denominations like the Southern Baptist convention in the first place. Unfortunately, We’ve not always lived up to this core value. I’ve watched as some ministry leaders put pressure on other ministry leaders to toe their particular preference line in order to retain fellowship.

As an independent, I must allow others to be independent. It is wrong for the more contemporary preacher to insist that the more conservative preacher use a method that his conscience won’t allow. It is equally wrong for a more conservative preacher to insist that the more contemporary preacher use a method his conscience won’t allow. Let Independent Baptists remain independent.

  1. They were dedicated to fiscal accountability.

The books in our church have always been open to the members of our church. I learned this from the old independent Baptists, not from the authoritarian dictators who rose up in the 70s and 80s that called themselves independent Baptist preachers, but from godly, independent Baptists who honestly attempted to lead God’s flock. We were taught that Satan would use three things to entrap a man:

  • Fame
  • Females
  • Finances

The Independent Baptists with whom I’ve been in contact were genuinely vigilant in all of these areas. Sadly, there have been those who have fallen & sullied the Independent Baptist name, along with the far more important name of Christ. However, these men are the minority. For every preacher that has fallen to temptation there are nine others who have lived right.

  1. They Taught us to be Well Read.

I love Josh’s statement that “no pride should be taken in ignorance”. When I was in college 40 years ago, Independent Baptists encouraged us to read periodicals to keep up on what was going on in our culture. We were taught to get Time Magazine and a local newspaper to stay current and apply the Scripture to our culture. Beyond that, we were encouraged to read through the Bible at least once a year. We were encouraged to read biographies and ministry methodology books. “Eat the fish and spit out the bones” and “never throw the baby out with the bath water” were the mottos of our day. This philosophy has allowed me to read books by John MacArthur, John R. Rice, Andy Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, Paul Chappell, and Charles Haddon Spurgeon, among others.

  1. They are Just Getting Started.

I have been involved in the Independent Baptist movement for forty-three years and I too am just getting started! We’ve accomplished so much and I believe that we have so much more to do. Souls need to be saved, marriages need to be restored, and churches need to be planted. We can do this through the power of God in our lives.

Let others do their thing while you do yours. Stay doctrinally pure. Stay morally pure. Live a practically holy life. Remember the only opinion that really matters in the end is God’s. Do what He wants you to do and you will be okay. Be willing to be criticized – just stay true to the Book. If you run out of friends – contact me or one of my boys. We will be friends to anybody who is a friend of Christ.

If you found this article to be interesting – share it on social media!


I would love to hear your thoughts! Comment below

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  • Reply
    Randy Justus
    December 14, 2015 at 3:12 pm

    A perfect follow-up post! Thank you both!

  • Reply
    Tate Throndson
    December 14, 2015 at 3:20 pm

    Well, now I don’t know if I’m an “Old” independent baptist or a “New” one! 🙂

    • Reply
      Josh Teis
      December 14, 2015 at 3:36 pm


    • Reply
      December 14, 2015 at 7:16 pm

      Just be a real one with grace!

  • Reply
    Stephen Meister
    December 14, 2015 at 3:27 pm

    Wow! What a wonderful post.
    “Be friends to anyone who is a friend of Christ.” What a wonderful guideline to live by.
    May God richly bless you.

    • Reply
      June 2, 2017 at 2:07 am

      Hinder them not If they are for us they are not against us is what Jesus told the diciples when others outside their group were preaching the gospel

  • Reply
    Lee Taylor
    December 14, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    Thank you for this article…very helpful and full of insight

  • Reply
    Frank Shearer
    December 14, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    I don’t have the words. I am thanking God for those who have gone before that did the heavy lifting and asking God today for more.

  • Reply
    Terry Dorsett
    December 14, 2015 at 3:56 pm

    Well written. Thanks for sharing. (from an Old Independent Baptist who is now a Southern Baptist, because now they are pretty much the same thing.)

    • Reply
      Phillip Huggins
      December 15, 2015 at 3:21 pm

      Nailed it. I have not changed my theology or practice and am very comfortable in the SBC.

  • Reply
    Andy Stevens
    December 14, 2015 at 4:00 pm

    Jesus said, “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” John 15:14
    In this day when many call good evil and evil good, it is important to remember that
    Jesus has already declared who his friends are.

  • Reply
    Atef Elzeftawy
    December 14, 2015 at 4:04 pm

    Great job writing this

  • Reply
    Faith Gels
    December 14, 2015 at 4:15 pm

    I love how these two articles say basically the same thing! Great articles. Very helpful. Thank you for sharing!

  • Reply
    December 14, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    An excellent pair of articles that really hit me square where I find myself in life. Thank you to the two of you for sharing your wisdom.

  • Reply
    Matt Baker
    December 14, 2015 at 4:40 pm

    Great post, Dr. Teis! I’ve always appreciated your heart for people, and for being Gospel-centered. All of these notes from both Josh and Dr. Teis are grace-filled, and Bible-centered. There is liberty within the church to do things differently, methodically speaking, to reach the community we’ve been planted in, and I love what I see in my pastor friends who are reaching out in unique ways to impact the world with the Gospel!

  • Reply
    Kyle Sheridan
    December 14, 2015 at 4:42 pm

    Wow, thanks! I enjoyed reading this and was truly encouraged in the areas of doctrinal purity, moral purity, and practical holiness.

  • Reply
    Zane Salyers
    December 14, 2015 at 4:53 pm

    I believe many new independents desire to strike the fire the old independents started, but the dividers have tried to stamp out. It all falls back on these exact principles, but applied to the modern culture. I agree with Tate’s statement- I don’t know if I’m an old one or new one! The point, however, is to be biblical and diligent about the Lord’s work. Great articles, gentlemen.

  • Reply
    Phil Green
    December 14, 2015 at 5:15 pm

    Thank you for the follow up as well as the differences in historic independent fundamental baptists and those who hijacked it focusing on the minors!

  • Reply
    Tom Bryant
    December 14, 2015 at 5:24 pm

    Good article. Well written. However, I do strongly disagree when you refer to dress, music, pulpit attire, and Bible versions as “nonsense.” Which Bible we use is VERY important, and while we should not attempt to force our folks into anything, my Bible says there should be a difference between me and the world. Whether it is in dress, music, or whatever. (“In the world. Not of the world.”) We definitely need to reach this current generation. I still believe it can be done with good music and Godly separation and strong and true preaching of the Word of God. Today’s preachers seem to be afraid of even the term “Separation.” Doesn’t the Bible still say “Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate saith the Lord.?

    • Reply
      Josh Teis
      December 14, 2015 at 5:55 pm

      Please do not misinterpret my father’s position on the Bible. He has a very strong TR position. What he was saying was nonsense was ecclesiastical separation over these issues. This kind of hyper-separtisim is wrong and does not reflect the historic Independent Baptist position. An example of this is in the life and ministry of John R. Rice who was not King James Only as many in the movement today.


      What we are declaring is that it is okay to remain in ecclesiastical union and cooperate in ministry with those who hold differing positions on issues like this. If one would disagree then they ought openly declare their separation from John R. Rice. For a full understanding of Rice’s Biblical perspective read his book: http://www.amazon.com/Our-God-Breathed-Book-The-Bible/dp/0873986288

    • Reply
      December 15, 2015 at 3:32 am

      Separation from the world is of utmost importance. However, the gospel message is not confined to the US borders. Try to preach a sermon about women in breeches in Africa. We too were taught that it is worldly if a woman was caught in town without a dress on. Not a biblical stand, but preference stand. “Bringing in the sheaves” would be considered “worldly” from the eyes of Asaph or Solomon or Moses or David, who indeed pinned God inspired songs. We have been told that everything that the preacher says is wrong and to abstain from it, instead of letting us listen to the Spirit of God as He tells us what’s wrong. Preach the Bible, let the Spirit clean the redeemed, and there will be less inward ugly looking at us as we preach.

      • Reply
        Phil Hinson
        December 15, 2015 at 4:05 am

        Continued from my reply (anonymous). What if by chance we have ever been wrong? Just a thought, and I will be the first to admit. In Christ.

  • Reply
    Derek Dewey
    December 14, 2015 at 5:37 pm

    I love both of these posts. I agree, and pray that we grow closer as independent churches. We will be able to accomplish more for Christ if we can fellowship.

  • Reply
    Phil Hinson
    December 14, 2015 at 5:39 pm

    Well said. I too was sent to a Pentecostal Holiness Church as a Child (age 5 to 15), yet never heard the gospel of salvation. I was presented the gospel according to scripture by a new (year old) convert of an Independent Baptist Church. Upon accepting Christ as my personal Saviour, I immediately went to that IBC where I became grounded in the old way. Then in turn, the Pastor resigned and the new pastor became separated from anyone who wasn’t a “bible believer”. I started seeking God to place me where I had liberty to worship without compromising the Book. I ended up as a pastor of a small church, that was doing great until that wicked one slipped in. My mistake was resigning instead of fighting. My family and I eventually have been led to an independent freewill Baptist church, who stands on the authority of the book. Greatful to be serving in this church. We as believers have a common core. Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Time is too short to break fellowship now over the length of a skirt and wearing just a white shirt to preach. I’m thankful for the wisdom of this post. It really spells it out for me. Hope to meet you some day here, but if not. We’ll see you over there. God Bless you.

  • Reply
    Tim Minge
    December 14, 2015 at 5:40 pm

    Great stuff. I love that it’s the same focus and mission from both “sides”. Glad we’re all on the same team. Thanks to both Pastor Josh and Pastor David for sharing your thoughts.

  • Reply
    Mark Smith - Bible Tracts Inc.
    December 14, 2015 at 5:40 pm

    As one who gets to cross many of the fellowship lines spoken of in this article, I was encouraged by the things said here.

  • Reply
    December 14, 2015 at 7:57 pm

    Great article. I have to say that the one thing that really turns me off of a church is the “judgemental” nature of some churches against others or even people that once went to their church, but felt then called elsewhere. Seeing people “shun” them because they didn’t go to “their church” does not send the right attitude and works against the cause of Christ. While I do see this played out more in older generations, it is still very much around in the younger also. If and/or when our countries starts seeing real persecution, I think we will look back and “laugh” at it. We will have bigger concerns and we will see how much we need other Christians, whether they call themselves baptist, independent baptist, non-denominational or another label or use KJV or NIV. We need to keep our eyes on Jesus.

  • Reply
    December 14, 2015 at 8:05 pm

    Thank you for a balanced second article. I love the title!

  • Reply
    Matt Allen
    December 14, 2015 at 8:08 pm

    Thank you for a balanced second article. I love the title!

    I have to admit I was shocked in my own study of what the “fundamentals” really are. Turns out “whether the Pastor can have facial hair” was not a fundamental of the faith.

    I once heard a godly pastor say, “It would do us good to remember there is much more church history prior to 1970.”

  • Reply
    William Keisling
    December 14, 2015 at 8:13 pm

    By far the best articles.ive read regarding independent fundamental Baptist in 40 years. I too have met. John r Rice, Lester Roloff,Jack Hyles, Lee Robwrson , along with others and even counseled eith some i named. These were all gracious men yet they differed on various points but each lived the other and set great examples.

  • Reply
    Tommy Thompson
    December 14, 2015 at 8:40 pm

    Exemplary and refreshing Josh! I have never been more proud of our heritage and to be an independent Baptist! May Christ be exalted as we remain Gospel-centric and make disciples for His honor and glory!

  • Reply
    Heather Yockey
    December 14, 2015 at 10:32 pm

    Satan uses females to entrap men. Is this something the new fundamental baptist male holds to? Or rather is this something the new fundamental baptist authority teaches?

    • Reply
      Josh Teis
      December 14, 2015 at 11:45 pm

      Good question heather. To view “females” as merely a tool of the devil to tempt godly men is not at all what any Christian should stand for or believe. Thank you for allowing us a chance to clarify. We apologize for giving the wrong impression with that statement.

      • Reply
        Heather Yockey
        December 15, 2015 at 1:48 pm

        Interesting teaching – viewing females as not just (merely) | a tool of the devil-used to entrap men …you view them as more. I differ on this count, as I do not view females in this light at all (nor males for that matter) – tools used by the devil.

        If one is taught that their very gender is dangerous (along with other more “positive” highlights)… the implications of shame are there before they even get out of the gate. How unfortunate. If the books a fundamental baptist reads continue to nail these “truths” into the head does this not continue to perpetuate fear/shame based thinking regarding gender? I think there are some independent fundamental baptists who eagerly want to rid themselves of these damaging thoughts/ideologies, but do not know where to begin.

  • Reply
    Cary Schmidt
    December 14, 2015 at 10:32 pm

    Dave Teis—you represent a godly heritage with which I am very grateful to identify, and one which I pray to pass along to the next generation with great passion. Thank you for loving the gospel and living the gospel! Thank you for authoritatively reminding us of our heritage. The kind of church you describe is the kind of church that reached my family when I was eight years old. Thankfully, because I had a strong and healthy biblical foundation, God gave discernment for me to recognize the unhealthy and unbiblical extremes when I was exposed to them, and He allowed me to remain committed to Biblical truth above all. Thank you for the GREAT article!

    Josh, I knew your first article was not intended to be a slap to the face of a previous generation, but I knew some would read through their own critical lens and see it that way. Your first article was intended to be a statement of rejoicing that young men are rising up with the same commitment to God’s Word as the previous generation. I must admit, I was amused a bit at the biased grid of rationale through which some filtered your words. Their preconceived notions gave your article a completely different and slanted meaning than what you intended, and than your words actually said, then they attacked you for reasons which they imposed upon you. Your gracious response let the obvious self-incrimination speak for itself.

    Thanks for this follow up which really resonated with my heart and my life-time experiences in healthy Baptist churches, with few exceptions—and thank the Lord, those were few and short-lived exceptions. May God give us a massive revival and resurgence of these kinds of healthy, Bible-Believing churches around the world.

    • Reply
      December 29, 2015 at 1:11 am

      Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking. Very condescending.

  • Reply
    Alicia Reagan
    December 14, 2015 at 10:54 pm

    Some of the greatest “independent” decisions I have ever made were to realize I follow Jesus – not men. I answer to God alone – not to self-appointed God juries, and I will be friends with the friends of Jesus.

  • Reply
    Rebekah Tastet
    December 14, 2015 at 11:03 pm

    Enjoyed very much! Thank you!

  • Reply
    Tim Bunch
    December 14, 2015 at 11:13 pm

    Amazing! Thanks bro. Josh and thanks Dr. Ties – 2 very thought provoking articles. It is sad that so many many will “separate” over so little. It has been my experience that the more “conservative” folks claim to be, the more inconsistent they actually become in that same “conservatism”.
    It is also sad that many within the independent Baptist movement think that WE ARE ALONE, that NO ONE ELSE/NO OTHER CHURCH is acceptable in Gods sight, yet the reality is, if reaching the World were left up to the independent Baptists – we have failed.
    I came into an independent Baptist Church having raised previously in a Church that street preached and distributed tracts corporately on a weekly basis, that taught The Bible, believed in the Rapture, Baptised by full immersion, and were solid on Salvation. This group of Churches are still found THROUGHOUT my nation, and they are all independent congregations. Many still where suits and only sing hymns. Sadly, these Churches separated and separated and separated until they have reached the stage where they now mark their annual “growth” by negatives. Where did they go wrong? They forgot that they were in the World!
    We live in a sin-sick and dying world that – at least here in Australia – increasingly knows NOTHING about our Saviour. We are no longer reaching a Bible-based culture, but a barbarian culture (I mean Biblically-ignorant, not uncivilised!). Yet despite having been saved by Gods great Grace, we as a movement are more interested in what people wear, sing, watch, etc., than we are of extending their souls that same grace!
    Old or New independent Baptist, let’s get back to making the Gospel our first priority and reaching the lost! FORGET continually asking “…Lord, and what shall this man do?” And simply start asking, “…Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” (John 21:21; Acts 9:6).

  • Reply
    December 14, 2015 at 11:50 pm

    Amen. Well written. Sadly however, this article will draw criticism from those who criticized the previous one.

    • Reply
      Even More Anonymous
      December 15, 2015 at 3:08 am

      Yeah, we know that because they’re all dummies!

  • Reply
    Teenage SBCer
    December 15, 2015 at 12:17 am

    This was a good read. I have respect for the IFB Movement, but I left the IFB to join a Gospel-Centered, Reformed SBC Church. I work there, serve in the worship ministry, and attend services regularly.

    The thing that turned me away from the IFB was underlying mean legalism that cultivated an atmosphere of judgement. My pastor was constantly attacking “liberals” who read from a different translation, listened to worship music, and had different political opinions than himself. The SBC Church I’m apart of now is very diverse in age, we use modern translations, and we have a blended service of both culturally relevant modern worship music and the timeless hymns of the faith that will live on forever. We love each other, do life with each other, and pour ourselves out for each other. I truly believe my church embodies true, New Testament Christian Orthodoxy.

    While SBC Politics can be annoying, I think we do a fantastic job with outreach with organizations like the IMB, and we value worship and the Word. Both forms of Baptists are not held back by tradition or under the authority of a denominational executive board in the sky. We value the cry of the Reformation: “Sola Scriptura!”

    While my IFB brothers may major on a few minors, I have found that many of them love the Gospel, the Word, the Nations, and each other. I have respect for them, and I pray that God will continue to use them for His glory. As a matter of fact, my old IFB youth pastor planted a passion for the Word in my heart by his powerful, Christ exalting preaching. My main prayer for them is that they would experience freedom and not be bound by a political stance, style of worship, translation, or a non-essential doctrine.

  • Reply
    Rick Lawrenson
    December 15, 2015 at 12:17 am

    Well written. I was an old independent Baptist from my conversion as a 10 year old boy until I took the pastorate of a Southern Baptist Church 25 years ago. I discovered (to my surprise) that Southern Baptists are independent as well. There is no denominational control whatsoever. That’s a myth. From what I’ve read the reason many left the Convention was due to growing liberalism in the seminaries a couple generations ago. Now all the seminaries are solidly conservative and biblical.

    And David and I started at LBC at the same time!

  • Reply
    Andy Stevens
    December 15, 2015 at 1:50 am

    Fundamentalism was a compromise from the very beginning. Agreeing to disagree on doctrines of lessor importance to win against greater evils was faulty for so many obvious reasons. There are no two classes of Scripture from God’s perspective and should not be from man’s either. The fact that people declare there are non-essentials when speaking of the Word of God is a declaration of spiritual ignorance of men regardless of the titles they hold. God give us men who will buy the truth and sell it not!

    • Reply
      Matt W
      December 15, 2015 at 3:53 am

      Who do you fellowship with? Only those you agree with everything on?

      Don’t you find you have t separate from everyone?

      I may have misread the intent of your comment, if so I apologize.

      • Reply
        Andy Stevens
        December 15, 2015 at 1:59 pm

        Matt, I fellowship with men of like faith and practice, but the most important fellowship is with the Lord. 1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: The Scriptures speak of two types of people, the wise man and the fool. Wisdom is found in the fear of the LORD. We cannot afford to play games concerning this matter because of the end result of forsaking wisdom is destruction. Pr 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed. Consider Isa 33:5 The LORD is exalted; for he dwelleth on high: he hath filled Zion with judgment and righteousness. 6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the LORD is his treasure.

    • Reply
      David Teis
      December 15, 2015 at 1:29 pm

      Dear friend, the apostle Paul said it first read Romans 14. Not only that read what Jesus said in Mark 9:38-40. I would also encourage you to read Luke 9:54-56. Let’s encourage our friends.

      • Reply
        Andy Stevens
        December 15, 2015 at 1:46 pm

        God’s truth is not meat offered to idols! What has been proposed from this blog is a removal of the ancient landmarks and a straying from the old paths. Paths not set in the 1960’s but the one set from the foundation of the world. God’s primary attribute is holiness and he has called for an holy people. Encouragement apart from truth is a band-aid on cancer. Pr 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

  • Reply
    Casey Stone, Pastor CBMC
    December 15, 2015 at 2:12 am

    Really encouraged by the New and Old IFB articles. I believe in our battle to remain true to separation from the world and its influence in the church today we are damaging the cause of Christ by denouncing all those who don’t “do as we do”. Certainly God can use a more contemporary ministry to spread his word even if their manner of worship differs from mine. I am reminded of who are enemies truly are thru these articles and they certainly aren’t those spreading the gospel. Thank you for sharing good sound wisdom.

  • Reply
    Rob Hoffman
    December 15, 2015 at 3:20 am

    Great writing. I too was saved and disciples through the ministry of an old Independant Baptist, Dr. Al Janney. So thankful for my heritage.

  • Reply
    John Milton
    December 15, 2015 at 4:07 am

    I too felt something was missing after reading the first article. This was a fantastic follow-up. Articulated extremely well. Thank you!

  • Reply
    Nathan Bice
    December 15, 2015 at 4:36 am

    I enjoyed both articles. I have met and heard Pastor David preach when I was in Florida at Trinity Baptist College where I attended with his nephew. So thankful for the balance and truth. My Grandfather pastored for 58 years in both southern and Independent Baptist Churches. My father has been pastoring for the last 31 years at the same Independent Baptist Church. I am very greatful for my heritage. I am pastoring a very small community church in the hills of Oregon. I am so thankful for being taught by those who came before to preach the Word. Thanks for the encouraging articles God Bless.

  • Reply
    Nicolas Broward
    December 15, 2015 at 5:05 am

    I am not a baptist anymore.. I grew up Southern Baptist and went to a Missionary Baptist for a short time, but I have very close family who are IB. I do still attend a very uplifting and Christ-centered church, but can I please appeal to the writers of all “denomination and church dissecting” blogs? No matter how subtle or friendly you try to word them, they are still opinion.. I see so many now-a-days and still wonder to myself, would Jesus care, and how productive is this? I believe that while it may be good for blog traffic, or a pat on the back amongst like-minded friends, there is still no biblical authority in opinion on whether or not your new IB is a matter of importance, and why you had to write a soothing “Old IB” article to help quell some of the strife the last article stirred.. God already left His word for us. It has everything you need, minus man’s opinion.. How you win souls, treat the lost, your brother, how you conduct yourself, and while you are supposed to preach it to lost souls and the Saints as a pastor, I believe that this new trend of writing opinion pieces on denominations can be harmful for the cause of “church” and can appear more about blog traffic or self, and has the tendency to come off as judge-y (which is ironic for the subject at hand) when these types of articles start circulating on FB and social media over and over.. What I’m saying is no one said you can’t believe these things, but when you turn them into an article with self proclaimed lables “New Independent Baptist” “Old Independent Baptist” and “whatever Judgey IB that are still out there” and it starts to circulate, it doesn’t make it so in heaven, and obviously does create new problems that weren’t there yesterday (not that none existed, but why contribute?).. I believe there are helpful rebuttles to some unfortunate blogs like “Why I left the church” or “Why I don’t believe in God” and so on, because they challenge a real issue with a hurting or lost soul, but I can’t help but wonder what God thinks of the opinion pieces, on why this denomination is getting a much needed makeover, or one I saw the other day that called out a few Sword of the Lord preachers from the “old movement”. It seemed shameful to name these men, who may be like the article stated, but nevertheless still goes completely against what the Bible teaches about going to that brother privately, or even letting God deal with these men.. I know that wasn’t you, so please don’t get me wrong, but I still cringe when I see these kinds of posts passed around on public Forums with my unsaved friends, who are still so confused about church in general… I respect you, Bro. Josh, so I hope you don’t find me too harsh. I just found your blog not long ago, and I have really enjoyed a lot of the articles. I wouldn’t take the time to write such a lengthy response if I didn’t care. I have just seen this being the new thing lately “judging the ‘old judgy crowd’ and denomination and nitpicking”…and wonder how truly important these words are to be writing blogs, to be passed around social media for the lost and the church to see.. Will these things matter in Heaven? Do they? You may feel like what you’re doing is helping or helping to change some old minds, and maybe that’s so, but at what cost are we supposed to do that? Paul talks about not offending a brother.. I believe we will give an account for every idol word, like the Bible says, and there are plenty of idol words passed around in the blogosphere. Many are not furthering the cause of Christ. We will still all be in Heaven together one day, so maybe these types of analyzing opinions are best left for a coffeehouse with friends, a personal discussion, or a preacher’s conference instead of such a broad and unfiltered, audience, when most of it is truly just personal opinion. I don’t believe God is a New Independent Baptist. 😉 Or an ‘Old’ one for that matter.
    In Christ,

    • Reply
      December 29, 2015 at 1:41 am

      Thank you so much for saying this so graciously. I whole heartedly agree.

  • Reply
    Jon Booth
    December 15, 2015 at 12:50 pm

    Matthew 5:19

    “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

    I don’t believe the Lord saw anything as nonessential or minor. Just a thought.

    • Reply
      Chad Buhman
      December 15, 2015 at 4:07 pm

      “Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. . . . . . . But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matthew 15:1-2, 9)

      The Lord saw hand washing as nonessential and minor, and He rebuked those who had elevated that nonessential from preference to the position of doctrine.

      • Reply
        Andy Stevens
        December 15, 2015 at 9:53 pm

        The Lord was dealing with the heart of Israel which made the traditions of men more important than the commandments of God. They were guilty of sacrifice without obedience. This heart that included fasting but not unto the LORD as well as other things proclaimed by the prophets was evidence of a lack of salvation. Your application of this passage is wrong.

        • Reply
          Chad Buhman
          December 15, 2015 at 10:23 pm

          Just like the Pharisees, many people today have “made the traditions of men more important than the commandments of God.”
          You said that Jesus didn’t see anything as nonessential or minor. I disagreed, and cited a passage where Jesus treated the traditions of men as nonessential and minor.
          The thing about these two articles that seems to be rubbing many folks the wrong way is the stance taken on “hyper-separation.” The authors point out that they aren’t willing to separate over things that are preferences not spelled out in the Bible (or “traditions,” if you will).
          My point (and application of the passage) is that many people decrying these articles are assigning the position of “Bible doctrine” to issues that are nothing more than the “traditions of men.”
          As Matthew 15:1-9 indicates, the Lord Jesus did not shy away from leaving traditions that were not biblical. In the same way, neither article posted by Bro. Teis advocated a break with any biblical doctrine. Biblical doctrine is essential, but traditions are non-essential. Jesus recognized that.

  • Reply
    C. Marc Rhodes
    December 15, 2015 at 1:38 pm


  • Reply
    Paul Miller
    December 15, 2015 at 2:11 pm

    Excellent, Dr. Teis! I love the comments, “Independent Baptists have always encouraged independent Baptists be independent. Separation was not over dress, music, pulpit attire, or Bible versions. All of this nonsense began to take place around 1980. Old independent Baptists had no problem with diversity in the movement, but they did insist on doctrinal purity, moral purity, and practical holiness. (Sadly, once people began to focus on minor issues, these major issues began to be excused.)”

    So if the “New” will embrace the original practice of the “Old” and not those in the middle who muddied the waters, the new will resemble the old as the old resembled Christ. I like it!

    The challenge to the “New” is that they still have to contend with the “Middle” group who still hold positions of authority in many circles. They will have to do what all good reformers do: ignore the negative voices and push on to a goal: the goal of glorifying God with one’s life, remaining doctrinally and morally pure and reaching people for Christ.

  • Reply
    Mary Durham
    December 15, 2015 at 3:19 pm

    Thank you for the very enlightening post. I want to learn all I can and I am so thankful that I “happened” across them today!


  • Reply
    Tom Modica
    December 15, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    Good article! I am not trying to be nit picky, unless I misunderstood one sentence in the intro:” I committed my life to Christ, yet no one told me how to get saved. ” How does one commit his life to Christ without knowing about salvation? God Bless.

  • Reply
    David Teis
    December 15, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    I heard about Jesus I knew that he was coming back but I did not know what the Bible says about how to be born again. In order to be saved One must understand that they are a sinner understand that Jesus Christ is God and that he died and was buried and rose from the dead to pay for their Sin. He must then call upon the name of the Lord Jesus to be saved. Romans 10:13 I did not understand any of that and I had never asked Jesus to give me eternal life. I told Him I would serve Him the rest of my life and I was trusting my good works and my commitment to get me to heaven! It wasn’t till I put my faith and trust in Him totally for my salvation that I got saved!

  • Reply
    December 15, 2015 at 11:31 pm

    So Bible versions is not a big deal in terms of separation I believe it’s a huge deal

    • Reply
      Steve Meister
      December 15, 2015 at 11:35 pm

      Based on what you’ve been taught, not based on historical positions. My grandfather pastored for around 50 years (1955-200) and used to team me out for my KJVO stance. Now I understand his points. Wish he were still here to let him know that I now understand.

  • Reply
    just a independent fundamental Baptist college student
    December 16, 2015 at 1:10 am

    You go off saying we’re obsessed with the Gospel, how can you say you don’t wanna conform to just one version if other versions except the inspired King James 1611 leave out important scripture verses like Acts 8:37and other words and doctrines.

    • Reply
      bill reds
      December 16, 2015 at 1:21 am

      Revelation 22:18-19 amen

    • Reply
      Steve Meister
      December 16, 2015 at 1:30 am

      You don’t read a 1611, and every Bible that has been copied since the originals were God breathes have been preserved only. Our country was founded upon the Geneva Bible and the Puritans despised the King’s translation.

      • Reply
        Steve Meister
        December 16, 2015 at 1:32 am

        *breathed. (I need a proof-reader;)

        • Reply
          joe knome
          December 16, 2015 at 1:45 am

          King James version is the perfect inerrant inspired invincible flawless LIVING Word of God not one flaw in it

          • Stephen Meister
            December 16, 2015 at 1:52 am

            If you repeat something often enough and long enough….
            What about every other language, do they have an inspired translation too?

  • Reply
    Daniel Hester, Jr.
    December 16, 2015 at 1:46 am

    While I would suspect that the majority here, myself included, only use the King James Bible, there are good, Godly men of God who pastor good, solid Bible believing churches who don’t use the King James Bible exclusively from the pulpit. I think they are wrong on the issue, but I still consider them my friends and I have even preached in their churches using my King James Bible with out any issue. This is the point of the article. Do you have an article with John R Rice? Will you refuse to read his materials because he wasn’t KJO? Do you have an issue with those that preached on the same platform with John R Rice? In a more general sense do you really believe that the only Godly people in America are those that use the King James Bible exclusively? Do we not see the absurdity in this level of separation? Good people can disagree even on the version debate!

  • Reply
    Daniel Hester, Jr.
    December 16, 2015 at 1:47 am

    *issue with John R Rice?

    I did it too! SMH

    • Reply
      Karen M
      February 16, 2024 at 11:55 pm

      Andy Stanley? As of 2023, not anymore! His father, the late Charles Stanley, was a Godly man I trusted. Shortly after Charles died I had a dream that I saw him in Heaven with someone (possibly an Angel) and he looked to be about 30 years old. Sadly Andy Stanley is now teaching doctrines of demons. I hope he gets Saved before he dies (or Jesus returns) . As of 2024 I’m witnessing Pastors such as John MacArthur and other well-knowns falling away and allowing the devil in.

      Jesus wants a STRONG Church and we need to work together to keep it that way. After attending many denominational churches and some home Messianic fellowships, watching various Pastors and Prophets online , I wasted many years and money doing it my way. Three years ago I broke down in tears and in prayer asked for a church that HE wants me to be with. I asked for a flyer or a door hanger with info about the church as a sign. Shortly afterward prayer was answered and I received a door hanger at my apartment for an independent Baptist Church. They genuinely love Jesus and teach sound doctrine, telling us to always put God/Jesus/Spirit and Bible FIRST and check what they teach against scripture if needed. They give and tithe because they love Jesus and not because they have to or to gain something from it.

      40 years ago when the property was purchased and construction was about to begin was during the rainy season here in southern Oregon. God prevented the rain from falling onto the property until construction was finished. The local Christian radio station would occasionally call the Pastor and ask how the weather is. Residents here witnessed a miracle.

      As of 2024 there are around 6 church plantings we are involved in helping with. THAT’s what a Church is able to achieve as a genuine Disciple of Jesus.

  • Reply
    billy Duncan
    December 16, 2015 at 1:56 am

    Do I believe people can get saved from other versions yes do I believe good people use other versions and are still good people yes but do I believe the King James is the inspired Word of God yes… people that use other versions are just using watered down versions of the Bible

  • Reply
    Aaron Clark
    December 16, 2015 at 5:50 pm

    Thank you Dr. Teis and Pastor Josh Teis! It would be nigh impossible for us to agree on everything, but I appreciate the gracious spirit from both of you. I am glad there are some “New” Independent Baptist and I appreciate there endeavors. However, the militant, degrading, and borderline hateful tenor of the comments made by some of the “Old” Independent Baptist is honestly why I will probably no longer label myself an Independent Baptist. I’m sure I’ll be separated from and gossiped about. After all, it’s what I used to do as an “Old Path” independent baptist. It makes for good preaching as well lol. It’s that kind of attitude that it turning many people away. I know there are great men of God on both sides who wouldn’t be liberal or legalistic, who have maintained a Biblical balance and who “in meekness” instructed others. I still hold them in the highest regards. But, as a general rule the independent Baptist that I have known are not either. And the more I study Scripture and Christ, the further away I am getting from it all. Don’t get me wrong, I still stand on the Word. But as someone recently wrote, I’m more concerned about “Belief over the Brand”.

  • Reply
    Spencer Smith
    December 17, 2015 at 5:02 pm

    It is impossible to have “doctrinal purity” unless you are willing to separate over Bible Versions.

    • Reply
      Stephen Meister
      December 17, 2015 at 5:24 pm

      But which one though, the 1611 or the 1769? Or the Oxford, or the Cambridge? I’m so confused.

  • Reply
    Nicolas Broward
    December 17, 2015 at 5:44 pm

    This is exactly what I’m talking about, Bro Randy Jr. I believe these types of articles only stir strife amongst neighbors in heaven. There are Pharisees out there preaching all manner of ACTUAL SACRILEGE that need to be addressed, but when you “major on the minors” in your article, and attack a stance, claiming them to be an idol for those that are also contenders for the faith, prepare to be attacked. Everyone ends up with egg on their faces. The “old crowd” are also well versed in their Bibles, and love them, and souls, as much as everybody here, and we cannot see their hearts.

    I just keep thinking over and over. We will all be in heaven together one day, then all will be revealed. It makes me think about the saying, “Be humble, you could be wrong.” We’ll know when we get there, but let’s not fight about that now. What’s our great commission?? Winning souls.. Not writing about why our New IB church is different from your Old IB church, and why we’re right, and then writing back scathing blog replies.. Just do the work God called you to, and leave other’s to their work as well. Like that one older brother said, he had teens and bible students that were enjoying it and learning. Why hurt the cause of Christ? We’re not there. Lives are being changed, whether we agree with their “old method” or not. Who knows what those kids are being saved from, by being involved in that ministry? They don’t have to be the best, by doing it just like us. Rarely will everyone do it just like us.. As a matter of fact, I doubt every person here, agrees on every detail completely, (probably it’s more different than we think) but I bet we agree that souls need to be saved, and that this nation is changing fast, and not for the good.. We don’t need to let satan derail us, during these critical times.. I don’t blame the preacher for sticking up for himself, some of what he said was very convicting, but he still had a bad spirit a few times as well.. None of this seems edifying to me, and it was all preventable. We just need to pray for each other, and pray for each other’s ministry’s.. If you think someone’s wrong, pray for them, or go to them, but attacking them on a blog (especially when fundamentally, they believe the same scripture) is not productive. Our hearts towards each other need to stay right, so they can be right towards the Lord, otherwise the ministry suffers.. We need Him more than ever now, to be a light for him.
    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
    6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
    7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
    8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
    9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
    10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
    11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
    12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
    13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
    14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
    16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
    17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
    18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
    25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
    26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

  • Reply
    McAllister Giebelstein
    December 17, 2015 at 6:34 pm

    Dear Teenage SBCER (and all who read this blog),

    I assume by your screen name that you are a young man, as I am. I am only 20 years old and praise the Lord to already be in my first year of full time ministry, which I definitely count as a privilege. I have much to learn in my life, and am earnestly studying the Word of God and learning from aged men of God as the Scripture commands in 2 Timothy 2:15 and Psalm 101:6. I praise the Lord for other young men like yourself that are seeking to serve the Lord with your life. In this day, even at my young age it is troubling to see many of my generation completely turning their back on God, and for anyone to even name the name of Christ anymore is a blessing to my heart.

    That being said, your comment and many others I have seen on both the New and Old Independent Baptist have troubled me. You ask “How exactly was this comment edifying to the Body?” I could ask the same of your comment. It seems to me that some (not all) are all for unity…unless someone disagrees with the conclusion you have come to, and then it is OK to attack and criticize. I don’t mean to criticize you with this comment, and I do appreciate your apology post that you followed up with. I post this reply on your comment, but it is a word to any who have used this column to launch an attack on someone just because he has raised caution on a direction both of the Independent Baptist articles have pushed.

    Although I am young, I have come to a conclusion based on Biblical principles that separation and standards are an issue that God is very concerned with. John 13:34-35 does say the disciples of Christ shall be known by their love one for another, but in the same discourse Jesus points out in John 14:15, 21, 23-24; and 15:14 that our love should produce obedience to the command of God, even as far as to say in one of those passages “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.”

    Also in reference to a previous comment by Jon Booth, I don’t believe that the implication was that the traditions of men created by the Pharisees (or by men today) were what Jesus was referring to. Jesus was reinforcing the principle set forth in Matthew 4:4, that man should live by “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” The truth is if we ignore the warnings of separation from the world, we are becoming more like the Corinthian church than anything else.

    The Apostle Paul presented a plea from God to this carnal church in 2 Corinthians 6:11-18. God said they could enjoy the father-son relationship with him when they came out from among them and became separate. Because I love God, I am fearful that anything come between the sweet communion He wants to have with me. I don’t want anything to cut off that relationship. I don’t want iniquity to hinder my prayer life (Psalm 66:18). I don’t want rebellion to cut off my call to God (Proverbs 1:20-33). Because I love God, I embrace standards and separation.

    I was recently speaking with a friend on this issue. As I related to him the conclusion I had come to on this matter, he said to me “Tell me, where is the line then. What is iniquity? Is wearing a pair of pants what separates us from God? Is being drunk what is evil, or is it just one drink? Is having a drum set on the platform what separates us from God? Should we be like the Church of God and not use pianos because they can be used wrong?” To be honest, I don’t know where God’s “line” is. We have Scripture on many issues that do draw God’s line, but some areas are unclear. What I do know, and what I related to my friend was this: I have standards because I don’t want to even get close to the line. I don’t have standards because an institution told me so or because it is a requirement for me to go to Christian School. I have standards because I love God. In truth, most all people who have standards have them because they love God.

    I do not intend for this comment to be a condemnation on those who do not agree with me. To those who will attribute my position as being molded by some Bible College or by my worshipping of a pastor, I will tell you that I actually did not finish Bible College because I saw a spirit being presented that may have caused some to depart from standards and separation. I will not name people or institutions, but I saw people lift separation and standards above the love of God, demanding people to adhere to an “artificial list of holiness based on personal preferences” as Pastor Josh mentioned in “The New Independent Baptist.” I saw men demand unconditional loyalty without question. I have seen men fall into sin, have seen men fall into financial irresponsibility and down the line. I have struggled with bitterness in my life because of it. But I have come to realize that our service should be to the Lord, not to a man. “The best of men are men at best” as the saying goes. While some men have left people with a bitter taste for the Old Time Religion, I cannot deny Biblical Principles because they misused their position. I read through the New Independent Baptist and studied Bible passages for hours before I came to the position I present in this comment. I present to all who read, what I believe to be the Biblical position. I do not condemn others who do not come to this conclusion. I believe Pastor Josh Teis, Dr. Dave Teis, and others who hold to the positions and principles set forth in these articles are sincere and believe they have come to a Biblical conclusion, and I respect that. It is not my place to say that you are wrong or are leading an assault against “True Christianity.” I do ask that those who do not agree with my position, and the position that other men such as Dr. Dennis Corle, Jon Booth, Dr. Bruce Goddard, and others have enough grace not automatically condemn this position and label us as some kind of “hyper-separatist” sect. We do not seek to cause discord among our brethren; we, along with many on this blog, just want to share what we have found in our studies.

    To those who are reading this, I thank you for taking time to consider this, and thank all who are willing to stand and preach the gospel of Christ – the gospel that takes the life of a hell bound sinner in rebellion against God, and transforms him into the image of Christ. As Paul said himself, “Notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.” May God bless you as you seek to serve Him.

  • Reply
    December 18, 2015 at 4:11 pm

    My husband has written a book titled “Robots or Rebel: The Danger of Growing up Legalist, and Biblical Motivations for True Holiness.” It speaks to a lot of things that have been talked about here. Would love to have you all check it out. Here is the link: http://amzn.com/1620202581

  • Reply
    Mark Gwynn
    December 18, 2015 at 10:58 pm

    editors John Piper & David Mathis
    This book about knowing God and loving others has been very compelling. It presents quite a challenge to each reader, asking if you have the “love of God” abiding in you or not. There are lots of sounding brass and tinkling cymbals in many of our conversations. I am ashamed, that as a born again believer of 35 years, after reading this book, I believe that my love for God and others is is sorely lacking, and at the very least, not where it should or could be. Give the book a try, and see if it does not give cause to look into the mirror and realize what is truly missing.

  • Reply
    December 29, 2015 at 1:36 am

    My first thought is simply why is the old independent or the new independent or worse yet, the middle independent the standard for anyone? Why not just preach the word, be instant in season,out of season… Be fully persuaded in your own mind, answering to God for your motives and actions, and stop leading others to doubtful disputations. I lean more conservatively, but I’m so tired of this argument. Perhaps stop trying to be a “movement” and just do what you believe God’s required of you? I’m an independent baptist, not ascribing to any of these formal labels set forth within both articles and their sometimes-well-written and sometimes-snarky-condescending comments. And I submit our standard ought to be the Word of God, not John R Rice, Jack Hyles, John Piper, Martin Luther, Charles Spurgeon or anyone else… I guess thats where I’m “lost” on the point of both of these articles and so many of the comments. Should we really care so much who John R Rice and Jerry Falwell fellowshipped with or more what the Lord says? I don’t understand why these men of the past have anything to do with what we ought to be doing in 2015/16 and beyond. ? Because they did or didn’t makes it right or wrong depending on which camp you fall into?? What does the Bible say? That ought to be the only litmus test of how we ought to be today…. Maybe I’ve misunderstood?

  • Reply
    December 29, 2015 at 3:20 am

    I read through Bob Gray’s article on the first blog. My heart just hurts reading Bob Gray’s spirit. It makes me sad and depressed to be reminded of that type of angry sarcasm used in the name of Christ. When we see Christ some glorious day, I know we will all feel ashamed for the ungodly spirit preached or published publicly or in the privacy of our homes and in our hearts. It would be so nice if the older generation would contend for the faith with the fruits of the Spirit still intact.

  • Reply
    Rick Borkowski
    January 4, 2016 at 1:07 am

    Some of these comments kind of reminds me of reading about the Amish arguing over whether or not they should allow zippers on men’s pants. Zippers were worldly and we are supposed to be separate from the world. Buttons are okay but if we start allowing zippers, where will it end? True Story.

  • Reply
    Joseph Jockisch
    January 7, 2016 at 9:05 pm

    Pastor Josh and Dr Teis I really enjoyed reading both of your post on the Independent Baptist. So much truth that needed to be said. I’m so thankful where we have been but I’m even more excited about where we as IB are heading.

  • Reply
    Patrick Holt
    February 20, 2016 at 3:50 am

    Been around the IFB for 40 years plus. One of the major emphasis that I remember was “Prayer.” I didn’t notice anything mentioned of it in the article. John R. Rice book, “Prayer, Asking and Receiving.” You knew that one night of your local Revival that the sermon would be on “Prayer.” Prayer was not just taught but practiced. E.M. Bounds, Mueller, Ravenhil, Torrey. Church Members gathered on Saturday evenings to pray down the presence of God. Leading up to, and during Revival Meetings, prayer was held around the clock. Church members came to the church at all different times to take their shift of praying. Men of the church gathered and went from pew to pew, laying hands on them, and prayed that God would speak to the hearts of those people that would sit in them on Sunday. We believed that all the planning and programs meant nothing unless God met with us. We believed that
    nothing could happen unless the Spirit of the Lord came down. We didn’t have a lot of confidence in ourselves, but
    much confidence in him.

  • Reply
    Joey Watt
    January 22, 2019 at 1:46 am

    Dr. John R. Rice had an amazing influence on my life and ministry. He used Psalms 119:63 (KJV) “I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts,” in defining his viewpoint of separation. He could write very forcefully against storehouse tithing (even calling some by name) or new evangelicalism (while loving and communicating with some in that camp).

    May we learn to discuss our differences honestly, desiring to help one another stay true to Bible principles, and maturely, not too easily offended when we are called to account. In all things let us seek the glory of God and the salvation of those who are lost.

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